Yuri Talk: My Gripes, Dislikes and Hopes for the Future of Yuri (By Your Average Joe)

I am and have been super busy lately, so my next Manga review will be a while. But since one of the hype shows of year (Netsuzou Trap) has been announced with a premiere date, I figured this would be the best time to talk about this.

So, this post will just be a big rant about Yuri Anime/Manga and it will be heavily based on my likes/dislikes. Hopefully you enjoy reading this but at the very least you learn some new things about me as a Manga reviewer and Anime watcher and maybe this post could start some discussions.

Just as a disclaimer, this will be very long. One more thing, reading back on this I realise I repeat myself a lot, but please understand that I really want to get my point across and was probably a little mad. I’d love to read your opinion on anything I mentioned in this post as well.

(Anime and ongoing Manga: ‘Sakura Trick

If you’ve been an avid Yuri fan for a while, you would know that Yuri is a niche genre in the Anime and Manga industry. We get about 1-3 Anime labelled with the Yuri genre a year. Yuri in Manga is more popular, not by a lot but it is still slightly more common. Still it is a niche genre, currently.

To start off, those that have read my ‘Renai Manga’ review would know that I hate Het(Hetero sexual) elements in Yuri Anime/Manga. I recently read a Manga by the name of ‘Amnesian’ and I will use this Manga as examples of some of these Het encounters. I must start off by saying I like ‘Amnesian’ a lot. I would love this Manga were it not for the flaws I’ll point out.

To clarify, I do like Het Anime and will encourage Het Romance where I see fit, such as in Het Anime. I just hate Het elements in Yuri Anime and Manga as they almost always interfere with the Yuri characters. If there was Het romance in a Yuri Anime, and the characters responsible for this romance are not the same ones as the characters responsible for the Yuri (such as in the Uta-Kata Manga), I don’t mind. But I do mind Het in a Yuri Anime/Manga as almost always, if there is Het elements in it, one of the characters responsible for the Het is also a part of the 2 characters that create the Yuri, if you understand what I mean. And it’s become to the point where I do not like there to be men in Yuri Anime/Manga.

Moving onto the ‘Amnesian’ Manga.

(Chikane (blue hair) and Himeko (Blondie) look different from what I last remember. Im unsure if the 2 blue haired and blonde haired girls are the same or different, but they look slightly different. I really wish this Manga alongside others get finished translating to English so I can read and review them.)

One of the main characters, Chikane, who is in love with Himeko (second protagonist) gets constantly sexually assaulted by other men. I will not include pictures of this but in one chapter, she is forced to strip naked (in front of a man) because her precious Himeko is held hostage (by the same man). To add insult to injuries, he starts touching her naked breasts and she says, and I quote: “More, rub more please” with an embarrassed or blushed face (I can’t tell which one). (This is what I mean with Het elements interfering with the Yuri character, because I am unsure if the Yuri character enjoys this Het encounter. I hate it when Yuri characters enjoy Het encounters because Yuri is so niche, though I’m unsure if Chikane actually enjoys this or not, hopefully she doesn’t). Whether she says this because she is aroused by this man or because she wants to catch him off guard to free her precious Himeko (because she actually does save her this way), I don’t know! While I was reading that chapter and even as I type this, I feel absolutely enraged and infuriated.

I hate Het encounters in Yuri Anime/Manga and Chikane (in the ‘Amnesian’ Manga) gets sexually assaulted this entire Manga (it’s still ongoing by the way). The only thing that can make this worse for me is if Chikane kissed someone (or did it with someone or was someone’s lover) that wasn’t Himeko (which luckily hasn’t happened with the 7 out of 12 chapters I’ve read so far). That’s the only thing that can make this worse. What can make a Het encounter even worse for me is if the Yuri character actually enjoys it. Again, I can’t tell if Chikane was enjoying the absolute absurd number of Het encounters in this Manga or not. I sincerely hope she wasn’t but it doesn’t change the fact that this still happened in the Manga. I will talk more about this later but moving on.

I also mind love triangles, even if it consists of all females. And for the record, I would still feel angry even if Chikane was sexually assaulted by another woman other than Himeko, not just men.

(Anime: ‘Tanaka-Kun‘. While the OG-Man praises this show for it’s amazing Yuri love confession from Miyano (the shortie) to Echizen (the blondie) in episode 3, in future episodes I was made aware that Echizen is clearly a Het character which honestly ruined the show for me a little)

The second annoying factor in Yuri Anime/Manga is the inexplicit or inconclusive endings. As mentioned in my ‘Renai Manga’ comments, the OG-Man comments that characters hooking up or a kiss is not always necessary to end an amazing story. While I do agree to some extent, I want confirmation that the characters will end up together and stay that way. While subtext is a big thing in Yuri at the current time of 2016/2017, I still do not want to be using subtext and subtle information by the end of the story. When the story is near it’s end, I want solid facts and I don’t want to be using my ‘Yuri goggles’ by that time. So two girls hooking up or a kiss is obvious enough and therefore satisfies me for the ending part.

(Anime: ‘Qualidea Code‘. While this anime was conclusive and these characters (Maihime X Hoatru) are exclusively Yuri, I wish there were more moments for them. There needs to be a season 2 where this couple become canon)

Which brings me to my next (almost) gripe, which is the subtext. I like subtext, I really do, as without subtext Yuri Anime, the OG-Man would be posting about 1-3 Anime reviews a year on this site currently. Subtext Yuri Anime is still Yuri to an extent and allows us to be occupied while we wait for Yuri to become a mass genre (because I have optimism and hope that the Yuri genre will become huge very soon). But I cannot deny the fact that sometimes, I do get tired of Subtext. I know I’m not the only one that feels this way as a while back, the OG-Man and another individual (who I will not name as I believe that to be an invasion of their privacy if I name them without their permission), published a post discussing that they sometimes also get tired of subtext. When I’ve watched too much Yuri subtext Anime, I yearn for ‘true Yuri’ so I go read an old or find a new ‘true Yuri’ Manga to read. That doesn’t mean I hate it, I love it in fact. When Yuri does become a mass genre, I’ll still greet Yuri subtext with open arms, I just sometimes get exhausted by it.

(Anime: ‘Non Non Biyori‘. Just wanted to include this pic. Honestly both ‘Qualidea Code’ and ‘Non Non Biyori’ suffer from a inconclusive end and subtext, more so in the first mentioned. Again there needs to be a season 3 with this couple becoming canon)

This is not a gripe but a mild annoyance (most of a time). I don’t like it when an Anime or Manga starts by showing you the intimate/sexually relationships two females have but later claim that these two females actually have an affair that we weren’t aware off, with two other females (such as the case in a Manga like ‘Gamma’. I initially only wanted the Manga to have a Miyuki X Yuri pairing. I was slightly heartbroken when they introduced the Hikari X Miyuki pairing therefore making the first one non-existent but I very quickly started to love this pairing more than the first. With most anime and Manga, I was not this quick to love the second pairing more than the first.) Like I said this is usually just a mild annoyance because an expectation is now planted in my head of these character’s relationship with each other but then later this expectation is changed. But this can be a nightmare, no doubt about it. If the second pairing is worse than the first one obviously that is a huge problem. And also if that second pairing is Het, I might as well just rip my hair out (or realistically just eat some ice-cream). This is the reason I will never watch Anime like ‘Cross Ange’ as no matter how good the Yuri may be, the Het ending renders the Yuri useless and just there as a bait.

And to move to my final topic of the day, the two (so far) hype Anime of 2017, ‘Citrus’ and ‘Netsuzou Trap’. Minor spoilers ahead.

I am both really hyped for and at the same time very worried about the release of these two Anime. I prefer ‘Citrus’ a little more over ‘Netsuzou Trap’, and unlike the latter I definitely know that ‘Citrus’ has a big audience and has less Het encounters. Both of these Manga are ongoing and I’m not up-to-date with either of them, but as far as I remember in the world of ‘Citrus’ one character wants a boyfriend and the other had an affair with a male teacher, he even kissed her so you can imagine that angers me. And ‘Netsuzou Trap’ is a Manga about two girls with their own boyfriends, and these girls tease each other, so yeah -_-

I brought up my gripes about ‘Amnesian’ before as I read the comments that were passed between the OG-Man and another individual (who I will not name as I believe that to be an invasion of their privacy if I name them without their permission). What they basically talked about was that the ‘Netsuzou Trap’ Anime could consist of constant Het encounters and some Yuri teasing only for them at the end to hook up as a Yuri couple. Even that is doubtable as the Manga is ongoing (the English translation at least) and the two female characters haven’t hooked up yet. So the entire Anime would be nothing other than a method of pissing me off.

I sincerely hope that these two Anime favour Yuri more than anything and that they can help grow Yuri as a genre. Even if these Anime have to annoy me a little bit, whether it be the Het, inconclusiveness or the subtext, I wouldn’t mind it IF they can grow the Yuri genre, help it turn into a mass one.

I do however have a strong feeling that neither of these two Anime will let me down but I am cautious. And I have also quickly realised how big of a deal it is that these Manga are getting anime adaptions. I mean, even non-Yuri members of the Anime community are talking about this so this is apparently huge.

“Kudos, you read it all!”

I’d love to hear your opinion about this topic and Thank you for reading! Hope to be writing Manga reviews soon when I’m not so occupied. I Don’t know when I’ll be done.

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27 Responses to Yuri Talk: My Gripes, Dislikes and Hopes for the Future of Yuri (By Your Average Joe)

  1. cirno9fan says:

    I think I’ve made this point somewhere before but anyway….regarding “subtext”:
    Even with hetships, it’s really uncommon to have a couple declare their love for each other in a way that’s certain and without doubt. So, there’s already that going against it. Next up we have how girls interacting with other girls, even sexually, is considered completely hetero and nothing more than “experimenting”/”skinship”/”A phase”.These two things are why “subtext” is such a frustrating at times subject.

    I do agree that I wish we could get things more concrete more often, but “subtext” manga/anime are continually pushing the boundaries. And, really, unless they actually do something to subvert the yuritext, then it’s not a gigantic issue.I also think that sometimes people (myself included) are too strict about what makes a relationship “canon”, and where “subtext” ends.

    I actually enjoy love triangles, but they seem to always be handled in a way that someone gets left int he cold.

    I know exactly what you mean about couploes just changing all of a sudden. A good example being the whole ManaIo thing in SGS. Until that episode, Io had zero anything that pointed to her being that close to Mana. Not saying she wasn’t a good friend, but anything beyond that wasn’t there. Then, They have this “chidhood friend” flashback, and suddenly Mana is Io’s eveything. It aws just stupid.Especially when she interacted so well with Tsubame before that. Bait and swtich is the worst…also ruined the good things Mana had going with Yumi….

    Onto the “het” thing. I don’t mind hetmance in a yuri anime/manga. As long as it doesn’t override teh yuri. I really dont’ mind if guys are in it. Even if it’s just one guy. A good recent example of this sort of situation that worked out well (no idea bout the manga) would be “miss bernard said” (bernard jou iwaku). It looked like it was going to be a harem sort of show from the outside, but when you actually watched a few eps, a very yuri devfelopment continued throughout the eps with the MC. And there was never a single anything pointing towards the MC getting with the guy. A nice surprise

    I personally thinka yuri work is improved if guys are actualy a decent part of it. Because it shows that the girls really just do like each other, and it’s not just some “phase” that they’ll grow out of once they leave highschool. Acting like guys don’t exist is actually hurting the yuri some, because it gives way more credence to the possibility that the “problem” is just that they don’t know how great guys can be. Since they never really interacted with them (outside maybe a father/etc). But when they’re in a normal high school, and they still find themselves falling for a girl, then it makes it so much more believable that it isn’t some “phase”/”experimenting”.

    NTR is frustrating though. I haven’t kept up on it in a long time, but I have read a decent amount of chapters. Mostly because of one character, and her situation. I won’t explain because that would be spoiling things, but it’s just hard to read because of her plight. And the MC is kind of about as smart as stale bread..

    Liked by 4 people

    • Denny Sinnoh says:

      Re: “Acting like guys don’t exist ”
      Slightly off topic. I remember in the series “Strawberry Panic” there were not ANY male characters. I understand that they were at a school for girls, but in that universe males did not exist at all? Not even an old guy janitor? Even when they were off campus — no men.

      Liked by 1 person

      • OG-Man says:

        One of the girls has an arranged marriage with a guy who is shown as a silhouette. That’s the closest we got to showing a guy in SP. So yes men exist in that universe.

        Liked by 2 people

  2. TheImmortalHottentot says:

    I definitely understand your frustration with het in yuri. For a while, it was hard to pin down why I hated it so much in some cases but not in others, but I realized that I think it has to do with the legitimization of the yuri relationship. For instance, in the manga Octave (minor spoilers), one of the characters in the lesbian relationship has a het encounter, but I was okay with it because she is trying to figure out her sexuality and she ends up not having sex with the dude because she realizes she doesn’t like it. I think when one of the yuri characters enjoys a het encounter or when there is a lack of a definite relationship by the end, it delegitimizes the lesbian relationship. It’s a theme in some very early yuri that the relationship is simply an imitation or practice for “real romance” with a male. This, I think, is what really angers me. Rape and forced het I dislike regardless, but I think there is still a notion in those situations that the yuri is delegitimized by force.

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  3. OG-Man says:

    Nicely done dood. Glad to hear you got it out of your system. As I have said before I coped with there being more subtext than canon to the point that I enjoy it, knowing that the patience will eventually pay off every now and then.

    Yes. The “male interference” negative yuri trope you described in Amnesian is a worst case scenario. My thing with that is if there absolutely must be a guy in a show like that, make sure yuri prevails and we’re good.

    As far as love triangles go, mixed bag for me. As cirno9fan pointed out the sad thing about them is that usually someone loses and more often than not the loser is not a bad person, though there also times the loser is written like a jackass from the start rather than them becoming one because they see their beloved showing googly eyes for someone else.

    Hopefully the NTR and Citrus anime will help boost yuri’s popularity in the mainstream to the point of further lessening subtext yuri and cause the industry to market more canon on-screen yuri.

    Liked by 3 people

  4. Ahhhh yes Amnesian, the “true” sequel to Kannazuki no Miko that never finished scanlation because the TLs squicked out on it after chapter 12 or 13. I honestly enjoyed that trash when I first read it, though I have no idea if I would now. Still, since I started it, I’m hoping one day I can read it again and finish it so I can finally know the ultimate fate of the last incarnations of Chikane and Himeko (and Murakumo).

    Guys in yuri anime don’t really bother me, and neither do girls with hetero proclivities who are in/interested in same-sex relationships with another female. I do wish that yuri relationships would stop being used as “fanservice” in a lot of harem and ecchi anime though, but it is what it is. If anything, I wish that the male would function as the intermediary to bring the two girls together, because that’s what actually SHOULD happen when they’re interested/involved in the same guy. Watch films like The Women and Stage Door which are considered queer cult classics for their lesbian undertones and all female casts despite the frequent mentioning of men (yet they never appear onscreen or are merely side characters) making it so that they wouldn’t pass the Bechdel test, and you’ll see what I mean.

    Subtext I’m hit or miss on. I feel like my definitions of what I would consider “canon” differ from other yuri fans’. And that’s fine. I don’t need a whole lot to fuel a yuri ship, honestly. Just see those girls interacting together onscreen, framed together in two shots, always looking each other in the eyes, maybe even flirting a bit. That’s all I really need. And of course if its a love and admiration for one girl powerful enough to destroy the world, then there’s not a question in my mind of the canonicity there.

    I don’t consider one-sided relationships enough justification to make a ship canon though. Others might, but that’s just me.

    I am not interested in the tone and subject material of the Citrus and NTR manga, which is why I will probably not be reading them anytime soon (though I do have a volume of Citrus, so I might change my mind on that). I will be watching the anime adaptations for both, in the hopes that despite how trashy they are they still manage to be enjoyable and well-produced enough to be successful, and open up opportunities for other superior yuri manga to finally get the adaptations they deserve.

    Liked by 2 people

  5. Reblogged this on haveyouexperiencedshitsurakuen and commented:

    Ahhhh yes Amnesian, the “true” sequel to Kannazuki no Miko that never finished scanlation because the TLs squicked out on it after chapter 12 or 13. I honestly enjoyed that trash when I first read it, though I have no idea if I would now. Still, since I started it, I’m hoping one day I can read it again and finish it so I can finally know the ultimate fate of the last incarnations of Chikane and Himeko (and Murakumo).

    Guys in yuri anime don’t really bother me, and neither do girls with hetero proclivities who are in/interested in same-sex relationships with another female. I do wish that yuri relationships would stop being used as “fanservice” in a lot of harem and ecchi anime though, but it is what it is. If anything, I wish that the male would function as the intermediary to bring the two girls together, because that’s what actually SHOULD happen when they’re interested/involved in the same guy. Watch films like The Women and Stage Door which are considered queer cult classics for their lesbian undertones and all female casts despite the frequent mentioning of men (yet they never appear onscreen or are merely side characters) making it so that they wouldn’t pass the Bechdel test, and you’ll see what I mean.

    Subtext I’m hit or miss on. I feel like my definitions of what I would consider “canon” differ from other yuri fans’. And that’s fine. I don’t need a whole lot to fuel a yuri ship, honestly. Just see those girls interacting together onscreen, framed together in two shots, always looking each other in the eyes, maybe even flirting a bit. That’s all I really need. And of course if its a love and admiration for one girl powerful enough to destroy the world, then there’s not a question in my mind of the canonicity there.

    I don’t consider one-sided relationships enough justification to make a ship canon though. Others might, but that’s just me.

    I am not interested in the tone and subject material of the Citrus and NTR manga, which is why I will probably not be reading them anytime soon (though I do have a volume of Citrus, so I might change my mind on that). I will be watching the anime adaptations for both, in the hopes that despite how trashy they are they still manage to be enjoyable and well-produced enough to be successful, and open up opportunities for other superior yuri manga to finally get the adaptations they deserve.

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  6. Fipse says:

    There is really nothing to add about personal preferences to subtext and males in yuri stories. I do not mind male characters but constant molesting and blushing by the girl is…well not so nice and I try to avoid those stories.
    But your complain about Non Non is a bit pointless because the manga is ongoing so of course the anime wont cover any relationship stuff.

    A few mistakes in your description of shows/manga through. Cross Ange has legit yuri ends. Not for the main character but the lesbian characters stay lesbians without any male interference and 2 even become a full, legit couple. It is funny how people always call Cross Ange turning girls het when this never happens.
    Second, Citrus has no real male interference. The teacher stuff is wrapped up quickly and the kiss is nothing.

    Liked by 4 people

  7. yoyo says:

    So every yuri fan’s have different ‘rules’ and thing’s that triggers them. For me I hate bisexual, het is fine if it’s not much(I’d get bored), though I hate it when the het characters is the characters that I like. My ideal story is the unlikely setting and characters where you’d expect yuri the least, and surprise you with lesbian characters and story.

    Liked by 2 people

  8. B-M says:

    I think it’s difficult to portray a bisexual character, and you’ll always piss off het/homo fans by having them swing either way, but amusingly it always ends up with them having a straight relationship by the end. Coincidence?

    Guys. Hmm. I don’t generally like male characters that are fawned over because of their gender, which unfortunately happens all-too-often. I definitely don’t like rapey stuff like you mentioned with Amnesian (though, that sounds like some weird power-fantasies the authors have regarding their favourite character lol, an all too frequent occurrence for male authors getting a bit excited about their homosexual women and wanting a piece via self-insert). Souma of Kannazuki no Miko is an example of a yuri show that got inserting guys over right. Cross Ange sounds like one that got it wrong (and hence I’m still avoiding it lol)

    However, when you’re talking about guys in reference to the upcoming yuri shows, I really must stop you. Heteronormativity is a burden, placed on not just girls but boys from almost the moment they are born. Yuzu has never had a boyfriend and decides she wants one ASAP because all of her friends have had boyfriends, but she quickly comes to terms with her sexuality. As for Mei and the teacher? That was more kind of… assault. Tbh, that got left in the first couple of chapters and stayed there lol, think it was an author faux pas. As for NT, a similar story of learning to break the heteronormative system occurs, with them learning their true sexuality through “experimentation”.

    You’ve just got to understand that homosexuality is not… expected, of anybody, in current society. That’s changing, sure, but these girls are still expected to be having boyfriends and husbands and everything that goes with it by their parents, their friends, their teachers etc… until they learn otherwise. We’re fairly close to having characters who “just happen to be gay” (Eruna from Mikagura High School Suite is a surprisingly example of this, even though she never finds herself in a relationship) but with it being such a change-of-the-status-quo we’re just going to be getting stories that deal with homosexuality (Aoi Hana springs to mind), and not necessarily the homosexual relationship.

    As for subtext? Well, even most hetero-shows rarely go further than subtext, however there needs to be a change in the way the subtext is portrayed. Hetero-fanservice can literally just be differing gender causing feelings to arise, whereas a lot of yuri subtext can be brushed off as just friends. We need more blushing, people! Need more awkward blushing and other stuff to say “I’ve got feelings for you and I like you and ohmygod I love this moment”

    Liked by 4 people

  9. Zuneko says:

    I definitely agree that I hate het in my yuri, ONLY if it has to involve one of the yuri characters, both of them, or it is a dumb love triangle. I think that if they do that, they might as well just make it a het story because the yuri will most likely just be yuri bait and will piss yuri lovers off, especially stories with het endings and throw the yuri character in the dust. What also irks me is ‘surprise het ending’, with the guy barely being mentioned, very little charisma between him and the girl, yet still does the ending anyway for whatever reason that went through the author’s head when they decided to write their ‘surprise’ ending.

    I also hate yuri bait, which can be used in more ways than making it look like two girls are hooking up and then not. Like making it a temporary gender bender anime, where there is a guy that temporarily turns into a girl for “access of magical powers”. It makes me angrier when it doesn’t even matter for the MC to be a boy and they keep the gender bending temporary just for “fan service” when the author can just either have the MC stay as a boy or just having him stay as a girl. Another yuri bait is the “comedy lesbian”. Oh man, I almost hate this more than ‘useless gender bending’. The yuri girl being used just for comedy and fan service and the girl she flirts with either doesn’t hook up with her or hooks up with a guy. And even worse is that they still use her being heartbroken for comedy with using just the ‘comedic waterfall tears’ to express how upset she is. Of course the last one is the ‘surprise het ending’ which I already ranted about.

    Now for subtext, it is a blessing and a curse. For it being a blessing, subtext was the only way for yuri to even thrive as long as it has, since if all subtext yuri was removed, there would be pretty much nothing left for media and the yuri genre either would’ve died already or die in the future. For how it is a curse, we are pretty much stuck with subtext for showing any yuri in the anime industry for how unpopular (and totally underrated) yuri is, which might change with these two anime.

    Though I am dreading Netsuzou Trap for the obvious reasons. The only problem with Citrus that I have is how drawn out it is until they actually confess and date, and I am worried if the anime will even show the confession at all.

    Liked by 3 people

  10. An interesting thought came up there in the middle of your post and made me realize a little clearer why I might be a little different from most/some Yuri fans: I don’t expect anything (usually). I go into shows/series without expecting much of anything, and certainly not for a specific thing to happen, and thus I am unlikely to be disappointed by that thing not happening. Sure, sometimes I might start expecting things from the show based on how the show goes along and presents itself, and I often speculate about what might happen next, but rarely to the degree that I would be disappointed by the lack of that thing/those things. My expecting nothing might also be somewhat influenced by the fact that a show where everything would have gone the way I wanted it, or that would’ve included everything that I wanted has not yet appeared/been seen by me, and will likely never exist in the future either (or at least the probability of it is extremely low, since I hate using the words “never” or “impossible”).

    This lead me to my thoughts/habits on what you said about the canonicity of Yuri, especially in more subtexty series: I almost never expect my ships to become canon. I’m more of the type to construct elaborate, detailed headcanons about what I would like to happen instead, and go with that. With most shows, my own headcanons even carry (slightly) more weight with myself than the series itself. Obviously what happens in canon has the chance to affect my headcanons, and if something I’ld like to happen does happen in canon, it’s amazing, but often, if something happens in canon that I don’t like, I can just ignore it entirely. I also find it extremely easy to craft headcanons and ideas about Yuri(ish) things and situations. Just me give me two female characters, or even two women in real life, give them some moments where they appear together, no obvious attraction to anyone else, and It’s quite probable I’ll figure out a headcanon that would have them be in a relationship. I even sometimes say I’ve evolved so far past “Yuri goggles” that I’ve gained “Mystic Eyes of Yuri Perception”, allowing me to see Yuri absolutely anywhere, with very little effort and often even without really meaning to (as my nickname here implies).

    This also helps with the lack of “true” Yuri shows, as I pretty much never get bored of watching subtext shows (at least if there’s enough subtext). Because I don’t expect anything to happen in the first place, I’m not as annoyed by the lack of things happening, and can just have my imagination/headcanons take the place of anything that I would like to happen. Of course, I realize that’s just how my mind works, and that others likely do get tired of subtext.

    Another thing that perhaps affects how much I can tolerate subtext Yuri shows well is that I’m also the more “romantic” type of shipper in the first place. Romance is the thing that I’m looking for in my Yuri, and anything sexual is simply something I’m not too interested in. (Which leads me to avoid, or at least dislike, some of the more explicitly sexual Yuri shows.) Of course, in shows with good relationship development, the romantic should come along hand in hand with the sexual (eventually), so both are important, but I just tend to emphasize the romantic side of it. So perhaps subtext shows are easier for me to watch because I can simply continue the small hints/subtext that the show provides into my own headcanons about what I’d like to see happen next (will does, occasionally lead me to write fanfics where I write those ideas out more fully). Thus, inconclusive endings, while mildly frustrating, often don’t affect me that much.

    This also somewhat affects what you said about your third “gripe”, as for me, even if characters are sexual with each other, I won’t consider it a canon relationship until there’s some romance/emotion between said characters. Thus, for example, while I was annoyed with most of what happened in Cross Ange, (except for some small bits of wonderfulness mixed in with the bad) I wasn’t disappointed as such, in the same way at least, as the sexual relationships from the start never showed much real emotion, and it was only later in the story that more romantic Yuri appeared (mostly after the waste-of-space-character had appeared and ruined the chances for Ange herself).

    As to love triangles, I generally dislike them, at least in the antagonistic way that they’re often portrayed, with there being one “victor” and one person left in the dust. On the other hand, I am all for polyamorous relationships, and would like more seemingly “love triangle” situations end in that way instead. More exploration of polyamorous relationships (especially and particularly Yuri) would be interesting to see in anime/manga, but as I suspect that won’t happen for a very, very long time, I’m not holding my breath for it. (Some subtext (coughidolscough) series, and some manga, like the manga version of Inugami-san to Nekoyama-san, come the closest to even suggesting the thought of such a relationship). But indeed. Love triangles that end in a loser and a winner are on my list of things I don’t really like to see much, and since that’s the only way they seem to go at the moment (usually), they aren’t great in general.

    Now, as to what I think about men, and het ships in my Yuri (and subtext) shows (as well as het ships/romance shows in general): I mostly ignore them. They don’t offer me anything interesting to either think about or feel, so I ignore them. If something happens to a character that I ship, and they end up in a het relationship (even if it’s just for a while), or something like that is implied (or implied to have happened in the past), I often simply start to ignore that part of the show/series (or watch with far less interest, at the very least), and move onto my own headcanons (at least if I like the character(s) enough to have constructed headcanons by that point, it takes effort and interest too!). While I don’t hate het relationships, mostly I just have no time nor interest to follow them, whether it’s in a Yuri show or elsewhere, like in a show focused on het romance. (Which is why I often leave shows focusing on het relationships unwatched, excepting some cases where either the rest of the story is interesting enough, or there’s a Yuri (subtext) couple/character I’m interested in.)

    Finally, as for Citrus and Netsuzou Trap: if you make Yuri more mainstream/introduce more people to the genre, that’s great! But I myself will be going into both shows with relatively little expectations (as I do with most shows barring new seasons of shows I already love the hell out of). If someone interesting, different or awesome does happen, wonderful! …But I won’t be expecting it to.

    Liked by 3 people

  11. yukkaonna says:

    Aw, it was a good reading, what people think. Thanks, guys. I wish i could not only enjoing with just read, but also write my opinion too. But my english is bad and a huge amount of words for me a real pain and problem. So… OG, you don’t mind if i write my own thoughts about everything here on my native language (russian)? If no, i try my best in english X)

    Liked by 3 people

  12. Loriental says:

    Great post i share the same struggles my friend, I aways get mad with the clearly gay but not canon or even the worse supposed to be gay but Het comes out of nowhere.Can you enlighten me in what shows/manga you think the “pure” or “real” yuri happened for you?

    Like

  13. OG-Man says:

    Oh yes. as some peeps around have already mentioned regarding Cross Ange, the male lead came out of nowhere when the show started but as far as him “making lesbians go after men” he did nothing of the sort. The yuri was not affected at all. He was just there for the sake of tropes.

    As far as Non Non Biyori goes the manga’s still ongoing. Who knows? Maybe the Champ will come out victorious when the manga ends.

    As far as Citrus goes, whatever male interference there was in the beginning is quickly taken care of and served more as character development for Mei and Yuzu. My gripes with the series are of a different nature but we’ll go into more detail on that when the anime starts.

    Liked by 2 people

  14. yurimylove says:

    what i really want to see in Citrus and Netsuzou Trap anime, is lots of geniune on-screen yuri kisses. While there has been no lacking in subtext shows every season since the glorious Sakura Trick, i must admit I’ve started to exhibit “yuri kiss withdrawal syndrome”… 😫

    Liked by 2 people

  15. yukkaonna says:

    Haha, thanks guys! Thats why i love this place and everyone here! Okay, on that note i start

    В первую очередь, мне бы хотелось центрировать своё внимание на ситуации с “парни в юри-манге”. Дело в том, что насколько бы фанатичных и радикальных взглядов в жанре юри я не придерживалась, я отношусь к парням чаще положительно, чем отрицательно или, даже, нейтрально. И дело тут больше не в том, что они хороши или они мне нравятся – для меня они прежде всего гарант “серьезности”. Это заключается в том, что я не всегда серьезно воспринимаю представленные отношения между девушками в манге/аниме, если там присутствуют только женские персонажи и, тем более, если характер юри подтекстовый. Вызвано это тем, что я не редко воспринимаю отношения между героинями в таких случаях как “за неимением лучшего варианта, мы выбираем единственно доступный”, то есть, их отношения строятся сугубо из-за отсутствия парней поблизости и они вынуждены удовлетворять свои любовные потребности при помощи другой девушки. Особенно остро это воспринимается мной когда в очередной раз встречается ситуация с “но мы же обе девочки!”. Наличие же персонажа мужского пола наоборот, укрепляет доверие к чувствам девушек, которые состоят или хотят состоять в отношениях друг с другом, потому как они кристально чисто выражены в плане своих предпочтений и желаний. Есть доверие. Конечно, не без нюансов как, например, в новелле “Kindred spirits on the roof”, где отсутствие парней только на руку и где мотивы героинь предельно понятны и полностью серьёзны или “Nurse Love”, где сеттинг и вовсе состоит только из женщин, без каких-либо мужчин и намёка на них. И нюансов таких вполне хватает. Но опять же, мужской персонаж, при хорошем подходе к созданию его образа, мотивов, роли в истории, оказывает сугубо положительное влияние на историю, разбавляя её большей вариативностью сценария. Конечно, до тех пор, пока мы все знаем, что история будет закончена но юрийной ноте. В качестве примера можно привести Just Waiting for Spring от Canno, Girl x Girl x Boy, Usotsuki Lily (c 62 главы по 67), Crescent Sweet Honey и т.д. Так что, я не имею ничего против активной роли парней в юри. До тех пор, пока это не выливается в историю с изменами, бессмысленную драму ради драмы (Кодама Наоко-сама, я всё равно верю в вас!), глупые любовные треугольники только ради глупого конфликта, изнасилования. 🙂

    Теперь касательно подтекста и жанра юри в целом. Лично я для себя создала разделение жанра на несколько составляющих и определила их как: 1) Натуральное юри – тот тип жанра, когда тебе совершено не нужны доказательства любви между девушками в виде поцелуев или любой другой сексуальной близости, чтобы подтвердить их ориентацию, заинтересованность друг в друге, их любовь. Чаще всего пары в таком типе юри часто состоят в отношениях типа “жена и жена” и ведут себя соответствующе (Nights of Azure; Wife and Wife; A Room for Two etc). Кто-то скажет, что это не юри, а именно “подтекст”, но что есть для таких людей юри? Обязательная сексуальная близость между женщинами? Для меня юри это прежде всего любовь между женщинами, очень близкая и романтического плана, а не только поцелуи и секс. И Nights of Azure один из самых лучших представителей данного жанра в этом вопросе. 2) Стандартное юри – ну здесь и говорить нечего, потому как это типичный представитель жанра, в котором чаще всего фигурантами дела выступают типичные школьницы, с типичной драмой, ангстом, любовными треугольниками, комедией, “моэ-моэ” и так далее. Самый распространенный класс юри который существует в основном ради секса. (Valkyrie drive; Mira’s works; Kannazuki no Miko etc) 3) “Благородное” юри – это нечто среднее между первым типом и вторым, с той разницей, что в данном случае история имеет либо нестандартное исполнение, либо высокое качество или запоминающихся и уникальных персонажей и развивается в угоду качеству постановки истории в целом, а не только ради “lots of sex”, как в случае со второй категорией, и так далее. А иногда и несет в себе сразу все эти положительные качества. В общем, это тот случай, когда манга действительно имеет серьезный подход к исполнению а не является “юри ради юри”. К таким историям можно отнести Kase-san; Bloom into you; Dear my teacher etc. 4) Подтекст типа “Cute girls doing cute things” (CGDCT) – тот случай, когда подтекст остается лишь подтекстом и выполняет роль того самого “фан-сервиса”, не несущий какой-либо нагрузки и ответственности за развитие хоть каких-то серьезных чувств и отношений. Думаю, многие понимают, о каких вещах здесь речь ибо “имя им легион”. И этот тип я чаще отношу к фейковому юри, потому как оно почти всегда остается в своих рамках жанра, не приводя ни к какой кульминации между персонажами, так как это незыблемое правило – никакого развития простых шуток между подругами до сколь-нибудь серьезных романтических чувств. За редким исключением что-то и выделяется из этого типа жанра, но это именно что исключение и довольно редкое. И не то, чтобы я была против этой категории – напротив, она тоже имеет своё место в системе и я с радостью посмотрю такой тип аниме или почитаю мангу. В конце концов, столько милых девчат делают столько милых вещей, а порой и данный подтекст способен перерости в нечто большее! 5) Натуральный подтекст – на самом деле, для меня данная категория неразрывно связана с первой, потому как очень часто первая категория развивается как раз из этой, но всё же решила выделить в отдельную часть, дабы немного прояснить ситуацию. Дело в том, хоть эта категория и не имеет особых отличий от первой, но всё же, самая главная разница между ними заключена как раз именно в уровне отношений, их развития и цели. Конкретно можно сказать, что данная категория полностью лишена именно уровня отношений в качестве “Жена х Жена” и в большей степени распространяется как “влюбленные друг в друга девушки, которые не совершают шаг вперед, но их чувства явно представлены и их химия очень гармонична – они могут быть отличной парой”. В качестве примера можно привести аниме Canaan или . В случае с Canaan можно было заметить насколько сильны чувства между главными героинями и что вот-вот да поцелуются, но развитие дальше подобных мыслей так и не ушло и их пути расходятся, но расставание происходит на несколько положительной ноте, заключенной именно в восприятии самих героинь, что оставляет открытый конец.Говоря же о , то несмотря на присутствующую открытую и активную лесбиянку, тем не менее, фокуса на развитии каких-либо отношений нет, но и нет так же и отрицания того факта, что какое-то притяжение между Сарой и Рисой присутствует и оно строится не просто на развратности последней, а исходит из более глубоких побуждений и желаний.
    Конечно, это лишь категории самого жанра и его классификация, основанная на моих собственных предпочтениях и видениях и вообще пользоваться таким способом разделения не совсем корректно, так как присутствует фактор авторства и желая внести и тут некоторую ясность, позволю себе хотя бы выделить нескольких авторов в жанре юри, которых я зову “Божественной Плеядой” (глупое название, но именно оно отлично отражает моё отношение к ним)): Гениальная Накатани Нио, которая способна превратить любую историю в нечто уникальное, особенное, глубокое, независимо от жанров, с которыми она работает и после каждой её работы всегда начинаешь задумываться над посылами, которые она вкладывает; Добрая Ито Хачи, которая, несмотря на некоторую абсурдность её историй, делает по истине милые и теплые, “пушистые” вещи, от которых душа начинает таять в блаженстве, а если она решает уйти в сторону драмы или “темных” историй, то создается прекрасный контраст с её стилем, благодаря которому сложно воспринимать её истории как “очередное клише”; Вечная Такемия Дзюн, работы коей пусть и зачастую носят ангстовый характер, иногда депрессивны и почти всегда сосредоточены на школьных отношениях, но качество исполнения и просто любая её работа настоящий подарок, которым дорожишь; Прекрасная Ёцухара Фурико, каждую работу которой я всегда жду с нетерпением, потому что постоянно, когда я читаю её мангу, то забываю обо всём и просто наслаждаюсь чем-то по-настоящему приятным и красивым; Невероятная Некомура, обладающая просто потрясающим стилем, который невозможно забыть и спутать с чем-то другим, от чего её истории получают колоссальное усиление качества, независимо от её типа и благодаря чему Некомура способна легко достигнуть потрясающего контраста, если рисует “темную” историю; Развратная Мира. Nuff said; Безумная Тамамуси, мангака, которая способна придать каждой своей истории горькую нотку, разбавив всё сладким сиропом, после чего ты вряд ли задумаешься о том, насколько могла быть её история банальна. Слишком сильный “наркотик”, вызывающий неизлечимую зависимость; Прекрасная Такано Саку, о которой я бы выразилась точно так же, как и о Мире, но в отличии от последней, работы Такано-сенсей больше воспринимаются как нечто милое, теплое, доброе, нежели чем комедийное и сумашедшее.
    Конечно, выделяя всех этих мангак, я нисколько не хочу принизить уровень остальных, потому как у меня очень много любимых, глубоко уважаемых мною авторов, которых я бы спонсировала огромными вложениями, будь я хотя бы миллионершей. Но мне не хватит сил и времени, чтобы упомянуть их всех и выразить мою глубокую признательность им за то, сколько прекрасного настроения и времени они мне подарили. 🙂

    Что касается новых премьер в виде Citrus и NTR (заодно дам свою небольшую оценку как произведениям), то я от NTR вообще ничего такого не жду кроме 90% юри-байтинга на протяжении всего сериала. Я лично вообще не знаю, чего ожидать от NTR и по какому пути пойдет аниме – увидим ли мы историю от самого начала и до конца, увидим ли мы лишь часть того, что есть в манге, оставят ли нас с открытой концовкой… я этого всего не знаю. А учитывая, в каком типе Кодама Наоко пишет историю, я не питаю каких-либо иллюзий насчет чего-то хорошего как минимум до концовки. Я не испытываю отвращения к самой манге или её истории, я не говорю, что она очень плоха или ещё что. Лично для меня NTR это просто не самый лучший кандидат на экранизацию, чтобы привлечь внимание к жанру юри. Просто потому, что это будет мало чем отличаться от типичного “юри-байтинга” на протяжении большей части сериала, потому как я читала мангу и знаю, как долго там всё крутится вокруг да около и что кроме юри-байтинга там нет какого-либо прогресса в отношениях Юмы и Хотару. И уверена, что концовка будет в виде “Хотару уехала далеко от Юмы, взяв всю вину на себя (люди узнают об их “проделках” от Фудживары), дабы у Юмы всё было хорошо, но а Юма ,конечно же, ринется в след за Хотару, осознав свои чувства после небольшого периода времени и они станут настоящей парой ,заключив друг друга в поцелуе. Всё”. И не стоит забывать о том, что сама Кодама Наоко-сенсей заявила в интервью, что она любит рисовать “как Хотару и Юма прижимаются друг к другу грудями” и, по сути, это и есть основа всей манги и я более чем уверена, что именно такая же основа (если не ещё больше, учитывая некоторые изменения в персонажах) будет в аниме. А это не есть хорошо. Вообще. В таком случае, я просто могу посмотреть Senran Kagura или Valkyrie Drive. Так что, насчет NTR я не питаю каких-либо положительных эмоций. В любом случае, я просто подожду, когда выйдет NTR и буду уже тогда думать, стоит ли оно моего времени и внимания или нет.
    Возвращаясь к Citrus, я отношусь к его экранизации вполне положительно и считаю, что оно принесет в копилку жанра хорошее пополнение, несмотря на то, что я не очень хорошо жалую мангу, потому как там сплошные проблемы и кризисы в отношениях, а Юзу с Мей как были бестолковыми, так таковыми и остались. Для манги у Citrus много нареканий, в следствии чего я могу лишь сказать, что она на шатком уровне середнячка, потому как манга довольно долго выпускается, а прогресс настолько медленный, что единственное, что имеет хоть какую-то реальную тенденцию к развитию не только истории, но и отношений Юзу и Мей, это лишь проблемы, появляющиеся одна за другой на протяжении всего сюжета и постоянно новые персонажи, которые часто тащат на себе эти самые проблемы. При том, большинство этих проблем решаются простым разговором между героинями, но они настолько упорно бьются своими “рогами” в стенку, не желая идти на нормальный контакт, что это уже реально начинает бесить. И лично для меня основа проблемы заключена в Мей, так как за столько времени она почти никак не изменилась – всё такая же холодная стерва, которая всё держит в себе и проявляет иногда кое-какие… сомнительные знаки внимания Юзу. Учитывая, сколько всего сделала для неё и их отношений Юзу и как много сил она приложила для всего этого, редкие проявления “любви” от Мей смотрятся несколько странно и несправедливо, а уж почти постоянная маска безразличия и того подавно. Юзу, конечно, та ещё дурочка (в хорошем смысле) и делает порой совсем уж глупые вещи, но, я могу смело сказать, что она единственная, кто реально двигает отношения вперед, в то время как Мей сидит почти всё время на одном месте и не двигается. Стоит ли упоминать её странный до невозможности случай, когда она поцеловала подругу детства Юзу? Это был абсолютно бессмысленный и гадкий момент, это было отвратно. А её решение встречаться с девушкой, с которой она совсем недавно познакомилась? И всё это на фоне метаний Юзу и её попыток хоть как-то наладить отношения с Мей. Но, тем не менее, я считаю, что аниме по Citrus получится лучше манги и в качестве сериала для жанра будет иметь гораздо больше положительных черт и вклада, чем манга. Я очень надеюсь на это. И с нетерпением жду, когда Сакуратоба наконец-то приступит к своей новой работе в данном жанре. Она обладает очень большим потенциалом.

    Я бы ещё добавила своё мнение относительно остальной манги, которую здесь описывали, но, думаю, это будет уже перебор, учитывая, что я все свои мысли по этому поводу высказываю на родном языке, что сильно осложняет коммуникацию здесь… Потому, как-нибудь в другой раз при очередном индивидуальном разборе. 😀

    That’s all, i suppose. Heh, sorry for this big message, guys. 🙂

    P.S. Ah, yes! That’s all only my personal opinion. ))

    Liked by 1 person

    • yukkaonna says:

      Oh god, i forgot add one title name “Soukou no Strain” in here – привести аниме Canaan или – sorry for this mess, i just was in rush.

      Like

  16. I like Triangles. But what I want from them is for some to finally take a non-monogamus resolution.

    Like

  17. warfspider says:

    Forgot to post here, but apparently all the Echizen het stuff in Tanaka-kun takes place before the confession in the manga. Don’t know why they changed it, and I don’t want to assume the decision was homophobic, but it kind of seems it. It was frustrating, even as a straight male (though agendered).

    As for NT, I stopped reading because it was too traumatic, but it seems to handle things in a serious light. I don’t think a het ending could possibly be construed as good there for the majority of any audience, in the manga or anime. Still, I could be wrong, and it could also end up ruining everything by being exploitative anyway. I hope they give it a good end instead of sequel-bait or following the manga exactly (since that doesn’t look like it’s ending soon, at least from where I was??), but even so I might not watch it.

    As yuri becomes more mainstream, I do worry about het influence growing, producing ever more yuri-bait and co-opting things for het audiences. Hopefully awareness and desire for yuri endings grow with yuri.

    Good piece! First time posting, but I love reading the articles and comments on this site!

    Like

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